THE TALE OF THE POLLS: SECOND VERSE, SAME AS THE FIRST!
Within the past two days, 17 and 18 January, there have been three new scientific polls published, all showing Rudy with his by now customary lead for the Republican Nomination: (1) a Strategic Vision poll in Georgia; (2) a national Gallup Poll, and (3) a poll from the Zogby Organization among “likely caucus-goers in Iowa. Below, I have reproduced (only) the Republican side of these three polls, and I have limited them to the top contenders. Following that I have reproduced a very interesting colloquy in which I participated in the “Comments” section following the Zogby-Iowa poll results at “Race 4 2008” (). I think readers of this space will be very interested in this back-and-forth. Be sure to read all the way to the end. I promise you it will be worth it!
My ultimate conclusion: Run Rudy Run!
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January 17, 2007
Gallup Poll: Rudy Widens Lead Over McCain, Newt and Mitt Improving
Gallup Poll. Jan. 12-14, 2007. N=412 Republicans and Republican leaners nationwide. MoE ± 5 .
"Next, I'm going to read a list of people who may be running in the Republican primary for president in the next election. After I read all the names, please tell me which of those candidates you would be most likely to support for the Republican nomination for president in the year 2008, or if you would support someone else. . . ." Names rotated. Rice was included in the list of candidates in 2006.
Jan Dec Nov
Rudy Giuliani 31 28 28
John McCain 27 28 26
Newt Gingrich 10 8 7
Mitt Romney 7 4 5
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January 18, 2007
Poll Alert: Strategic Vision Georgia
For the 2008 Republican Presidential Nomination whom would you support? (Republicans Only)
Rudy Giuliani 27%
John McCain 24%
Newt Gingrich 12%
Mitt Romney 7%
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January 17, 2007
Poll Alert: Zogby 2008 Iowa Caucus
A Zogby poll; conducted 1/15-16; surveyed 465 likely GOP caucus-goers (margin of error +/- 4.6%); released 1/17). “Who do you support for the Republican nomination in 2008?
R. Giuliani 19%
J. McCain 17
N. Gingrich 13
C. Rice 9
M. Romney 5
Other/undec 31
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· Luther C. Hardy Says:
January 18th, 2007 at 9:23 am
Two points:
1. The Zogby organization is downright notorious for polling to the “Left”, both among Republicans and among Democrats. In my almost 40 years of studying political polls, I have noticed that the Zogby poll, for however long its been around — I don’t remember exactly — has consistently be an outlier to the left. Hence, Rudy is down from the 30%-18% lead he enjoyed over McCain among Iowa Caucus Workers in August, and Hillary is tied for third place, some 11 points behind Class Warrior Edwards.
2. I have been hearing for more than a year now that Rudy’s consistently high poll standing is based largely if not solely on ignorance. “When all those Right Wingers really get to know what he stands for, they won’t vote for him!” I honestly don’t know whether to laugh or cry. I don’t think I have ever seen such a persistent example of mass idiocy! There is obviously some sort of underlying psycho-pathological syndrome at work here. Or could it just be that the Beltway Elite is simply scared to death of a Rudy Presidency? — just the way that Mobsters, Inside Traders, and the Koch administration were scared to death of him when he was U.S. Attorney.
Of course, no evidence is ever given as to why Rudy’s poll numbers will come down, and no acknowledgement is ever given of all the sophisticated push-polling that has been done to compensate for possible ignorance of Rudy’s past positions, and when this is done, his numbers do not drop significantly! Put simply: Where is the hard evidence, for example, that “likely Iowa Caucus goers” — a famously savvy group on Presidential politics — are any more or less aware of McCain’s positions than Rudy’s, or vice versa? The facts are that Rudy has been pilloried from one end of the political spectrum to the other, from The NYT Editorial Page to that of the WSJ, about his soi disant “liberal positions”, yet he still consistently out-polls the Republican field, even in savvy Iowa and hard-core Republican “Base” States like Georgia.
I have written many times that it is downright insulting to the Christian Right, and other like-minded voters, to assume that they do not know of Rudy’s past positions. With all the attention and publicity that those positions have gotten, and are continuing to get, such a continuing assumption is downright idiotic.
Moreover, it’s even worse than that! In fact, it is not Rudy’s actual past positions that have gotten such attention and publicity. It is rather either a simply untrue statement of those positions, a caricature of them, or a Panglossian expression of distaste. For example: Rudy does not now, and has not ever, supported Gay marriage. Yet, just recently I heard no less a Media personage than Tom Brokaw give a political “analysis” where he stated flatly, and without contradiction, that among Rudy’s liberal positions that the “Right” will not like is that he (Rudy) supports Gay marriage! Another example: Rudy supported handgun-control for New York City when he was Mayor, yet he has stated that he does not support gun-control as a national policy.
All of this is particularly important for this reason. Of all those people who do “know” of Rudy’s positions — and he still remains the leader in the polls even after push-polling — what many, if indeed not most, of them “know” is the Media caricature of his positions. This actually leads to the conclusion, and there is a bit more than “some” evidence already to support this point, that when voters learn of Rudy’s actual positions, and find out that they are not so outré Lefty as they have been portrayed to be, his political support will actually go up.
My ultimate conclusion: Run Rudy Run!
· HeavyM Says:
January 18th, 2007 at 9:50 am
Luther,
I don’t have any scientific evidence, but I have plenty of anecdotes supporting the fact that when people get to know Rudy, they will not vote for him. I am not sure if it will play out nationwide like it does in my friends’ lives, but for whatever it’s worth: I have three friends specifically that I am thinking of that are fairly politically savvy. Out of those three, only one knew that Rudy was pro-choice all the way to partial birth abortion and pro-gun control. That one said he could never vote for Rudy based on those positions. The other two told me, after seeing Rudy in some magazine or commercial somewhere, that they hoped he ran and were thinking of voting for him. I said, “I don’t know if I could ever vote for him…” When asked why, I told them he was majorly pro-choice and pro-gun control. Both were shocked, surprised, and, after a few seconds of pondering the new information, said, “I don’t know if I could vote for him then, either.”
I know there’s scientific polls to show otherwise, but I will be interested to see what those polls show the closer we get to the primaries when it’s not theoretical and folks have to make an actual decision.
· Luther C. Hardy Says:
January 18th, 2007 at 10:28 am
HeavyM:
Actually, the reaction of your friends makes my point, and also points up the difference between “scientific” push-polling and anecdotal evidence: Rudy is actually not “pro abortion all the way to partial birth” and he does not support “gun control” either for the nation as a whole, nor the kind of gun control that most concerns the Republican “Base” in the South. Being in favour of controlling “Saturday night specials” in New York City is a distinctly different position that supporting the control of hunting rifles/shotguns in Alabama. As for the abortion position, there are a number of good articles floating around about how Rudy wrestled with this issue, vis-à-vis his sincerely held Catholic faith when first he considered a run for public office in the late 1980’s. I’ll see if I can find a cite for you.
Moreover, I have never had any doubt that Rudy most probably will not win outright the Christian Right, and other like-minded voters, though I would not bet the farm against it. That said, I think the more precise point is as I wrote in a posting on my own blog “Run Rudy Run” (http://lutherhardy.blogspot.com/) on 01 December 2006:
“Don’t forget, Rudy doesn’t actually have to win this block of voters. All he has to do is garner enough of their votes so that they don’t vote as a bloc for someone else and thereby deliver a primary win to that someone else.”
The title of the full posting is “The Frontrunnig Underdog”. Here is a longer excerpt:
“At least as important as Mr. Murdock’s prose, however, is the chart (reproduced below) that he compiled from Quinnipiac’s “Thermometer Reading” poll (conducted 13-19 November 2006), in conjunction with his article on Rudy in National Review On-Line, yesterday, 30 November 2006. I don’t believe I have ever seen anything quite this astounding. One should study this chart carefully!
“At the same time that the MSM and the “Conventional Wisdom” are loudly trumpeting John McCain as the frontrunner for the Republican nomination in 2008, Rudy leads every current potential candidate in every category of potential voters! Let me say that again louder: RUDY LEADS EVERY CURRENT POTENTIAL CANDIDATE IN EVERY CATEGORY OF POTENTIAL VOTERS!
“Even when non-candidates for 2008 are considered, Rudy still leads in 8 of 9 categories. The 9th category is “Republicans” where Rudy comes in a close 3rd to two non-candidates: 1. Condi Rice 72.3%; 2. President Bush 72.1%; 3. Rudy 71.7%. More importantly, however, even in this category, Rudy leads actual potential candidates, McCain (by 9.5 percentage points), Gingrich (12.8), and Romney (18.9), all by margins that are solidly above that category’s announced margin of error of +/-4.4%.
“Most importantly of all, however, in the category of “White Born-Again Christians”, Rudy leads the entire field by substantial margins. Here again, Rudy leads actual potential candidates McCain (9.2), Gingrich (18.5), and Romney (19.9), by margins that are solidly above that category’s announced margin of error 0f +/-4.7%. What is most important here is that this is the very category that the MSM and the “Conventional Wisdom” say is supposed to deny Rudy the Republican nomination.
“Moreover, that’s all they have to say against Rudy. Let me say that again louder: THAT’S ALL THEY HAVE TO SAY AGAINST RUDY! There is no other reason advanced by the MSM and the “Conventional Wisdom” as to why Rudy won’t win the nomination than that the Christian Right in the South won’t vote for him in the primaries. Yet, not only does Rudy lead every other name advanced in this category, he also leads Mitt Romney, supposedly the new “darling” of the Values Voters, by almost 20 percentage points! Don’t forget, Rudy doesn’t actually have to win this block of voters. All he has to do is garner enough of their votes so that they don’t vote as a bloc for someone else and thereby deliver a primary win to that someone else.”
In addition, if you do visit “Run Rudy Run”, on these subjects, I would recommend initially the following postings: the one entitled “Polls, Polls, and More Polls”, on 04 October 2006, “Don’t Ignore this Poll” from 12 October 2006, “Another Poll to Remember” from 16 October 2006, “Politics, Polls, etc.” from 10 January 2007, and “More from New Hampshire” on 11 January 2007.
Finally, like you I eagerly await what the polls show the closer we get to the primaries when it’s not theoretical and voters have to make an actual decision. My “nose” tells me that people underestimate Rudy at their peril. Most pointed, I think they underestimate Rudy’s metaphysical bond with grass-roots America.
· HeavyM Says:
January 18th, 2007 at 10:48 am
Luther, I agree with much of what you’ve written - that is, the polls do show Rudy in the lead right now and strong in every group of GOP voters. There’s no doubting that. I just wonder how many know Rudy’s actual stances on the issues, and when they do, whether or not that will affect their voting decisions. I know, it’s a line oft trumpeted by the MSM, but I can’t help but have it in the back of my mind.
Rudy certainly is pro-choice up to partial birth abortion, and has fought for public funding for abortions in NYC as well as said “No woman should ever be denied her right to an abortion.” Now, if he’s had some kind of change of heart on this issue I might take a look at the guy. But that’s doubtful as well, since he said “I don’t see my position on that changing” in regards to supporting partial birth abortion.
And he did get an F from Gun Owners of America (I couldn’t find an NRA rating on him), which seems to tell me that he has gone a little farther than just outlawing Saturday Night Specials while mayor.
· Grant Gormley Says:
January 18th, 2007 at 11:30 am
Luther–good job.. What others seem to say is:Ignore the polls showing Rudy is the most popular politician in America. They say Rudy is up but will go down when people get to know him. But Romney is down but will go up when people get to know him. That argument is rubbish. Go Rudy.
· Luther C. Hardy Says:
January 18th, 2007 at 1:30 pm
HeavyM and Grant:
I look forward hugely to continuing to correspond with both of you as we wend our way toward 20 January 2009!
I shall look for more information on Rudy on both abortion and gun control. It may take me a while, however, because I do after all have a law practice to run. I do know, however, that Rudy has said that he views gun-control to be a matter of Federalism, i.e., local control, though I cannot give you the specific citation off the seat of my pants. Rudy certainly has an obligation to set forth his present positions. I do not, however, take the "F" grade by GOA any more seriously than I would take a special-interest group on the Left skewering Hillary because she voted for the war in Iraq.
I really don't like to get myself drawn in to a discussion of Rudy's past positions, though I do it far more than I probably ought do. My basic position is this: Because of 9/11 the American public forged an almost mystical bond with Rudy, a bond that goes way beyond this position or that position. Moreover, Rudy's record as Mayor before 9/11 actually stands up well by comparison to his performance in the wake of 9/11.
There are no doubt many people who will not vote for him because of this position or that position. The 2008 election, however, will, in my judgment, turn on Leadership, with a Capital “L”, and particularly so with respect to “National Security” and “Homeland Security”. I am convinced that there are many people, including many in the Christian Right, who are going to strike an implicit bargain with Rudy and pull the lever for him in order to get his Leadership, even though they may have to “hold their nose” while doing so, on this or that issue. To some degree, I could indeed describe myself that way.
If you do read “Run Rudy Run”, you will find numerous instances where sophisticated commentators have also seen this tendency toward an implicit “bargain” with Rudy, including more than a few on the Christian Right, e.g., Fred Barnes. I would never criticize any actual voter who decided not to vote for Rudy because of what that voter considered to be a moral issue. Though I might not make the same choice myself, I do respect it.
What really drives me up the bleeding wall, however, and I am NOT referring here to either of you two gentlemen, is this. The Establishment Left, i.e., the “Conventional Wisdom”, the Mainstream Media, and the Beltway Punditoctacy are, in my judgment, using the Christian Right, whom they themselves disdain, as a verbal stalking horse for their own opposition to Rudy, so they won’t have to spell out their own reasons for opposing him. “The Christian Right opposes him, ergo, he can’t get the Republican nomination, ergo, all the PLU can simply dismiss him.”
These people oppose Rudy, not on any sincerely felt moral ground, but because they are afraid to the core of their souls of a Rudy Presidency. They are so deathly afraid of Rudy, first, because they KNOW they will not be able to “control” President Giuliani in the way they believe they would be able to control President McCain. More importantly, however, they are afraid because they KNOW that a Giuliani Presidency would absolutely sweep them from their customary positions of influence. Indeed, it would be like the 11th Labour of Hercules where he mucked out the Augean stables by diverting the flow of the Alpheus River.
Finally, it really PISSES ME OFF that these pompous blowhards think they can get away with using the Christian Right in this way.
marK Says:
January 18th, 2007 at 2:27 pm
They do the same with Romney, Luther. How does the serenity prayer go again?
Lord, give me the courage to change the things I can change,
The patience to endure the things I can’t change,
And the wisdom to see the difference.
…or something like that.
Grant Gormley Says:
January 18th, 2007 at 2:39 pm
Luther==I don’t know if I am part of the Christian right or not, but I am catholic, social conservative, and financial conservative. I am a retired lawyer so no law firm to run. I support Rudy because only two Repubs can win–Rudy and McCain. I don’t like McCain because he backstabbed GW for 6 years so that leaves Rudy. I also don’t like the commentators who say Rudy can’t win. I can’t think of a social conservative commentator on TV other than Cal Thomas and Pat Buchanan(whatever he is). Unlike the commentators on tv, I actually don’t feel condicension for social conservatives. Many like me support Rudy because of 9/11.
Luther C. Hardy Says:
January 18th, 2007 at 3:28 pm
Mark:
If I were that wise, I would not be involved in politics!
Luther C. Hardy Says:
January 18th, 2007 at 4:03 pm
Grant:
It sounds like you and I are, if not exactly on the same page, then no more than a page apart!
As for the Christian Right, I would count you in that group, as I would myself — a High-Church Anglican Virginian, who is just this side of being a full-blown Libertarian. The necessity, as I perceive it, for a strong military and strong fiscal discipline keeps me “just this side”. I practiced law in New York for 20 years, and negotiated many times with Rudy’s U.S. Attorney’s office. If Rudy and I belonged to the same debating club, we might very well find ourselves on opposite sides of more issues than not. His leadership as Mayor of NYC, and his performance in the wake of 9/11, however, puts him in a different category for me than merely someone with whom I might or might not disagree, on this or that issue.
My attitude toward Rudy is very much akin to the attitude expressed by the arch-Jacobin, General Vandamme about the Emperor Napoleon: “And so it was that I, who feared neither God nor Devil, trembled like a child when I approached him! And, I would have followed wherever he chose to lead.”
Back to the Christian Right: Despite how you and I might count ourselves, I fear that the Beltway Punditocracy, when it uses that or a similar term, intends it to mean someone more along the lines of a Southern Fundamentalist or Evangelical Protestant, a la Jerry Falwell – for whom I have enormous respect, though he would never be my confessor. That’s why, I think, the Quinnipiac “Thermometer Reading” poll came up with the category of “White Born-Again Christian Males”. In my view, this is one of the myriad of ways in which the Beltway Elite express subtly their disdain for anyone who is not PLU, including those who profess a sincere Christian faith. I cannot profess to know Rudy intimately, but I do know him well enough to assure you that his Catholic faith is deeply and sincerely held.
As for Media Personae, I would limit my social conservative commentators on T.V. to Cal Thomas and Fred Barnes. Pat, I am afraid long ago, became more Beltway Media Insider that Conservative Catholic Christian.